The songwriting gloves are off…can chord progressions/rhythms be plagiarized?

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It turned into the most lively discussion ever on the Songwriting Scene Facebook page last week:

It started because I have a song that I recorded several years ago, which I don’t play anymore — it’s just a light and fluffy pop song that doesn’t resonate much with me anymore. But I happen to really dig the chord progression and the acoustic guitar rhythm — so I’ve considered putting a new melody to the chord progression and new lyrics. But is that considered “cool?” Is it kind of like plagiarizing from yourself? Is it…gulp…just plain ol’ lazy?

Well, there were some rather heated responses from both sides. Valerie Cox said, succinctly, “Who doesn’t do that?” But a woman named Lisa Chang Orrantia told me off in one capitalized word: “LAZY!”

I tend to agree with the folks who feel that it’s the melody that counts…if it’s a new melody, it’s new. Chord progressions can’t be plagiarized.

Edward Zelnis says: “There is nothing at all wrong with that. It’s a process. If you you can add a stronger melody or lyric to a previously written accompaniment, you’ve made a better song. classical composers did it all the time.” And Bruce Meyer harked to one of my favorite songwriters: “Umm…let’s ask John Fogerty (he said yes, it’s ok).”

Others (Well, Steve Cooke) pointed out that using the same chord progression is fine, but they’d change the groove significantly, while another had a sarcastic reply: “Seeing as it seems to be OK to take someone else’s chord progression and throw new lyrics on top, I’d say go for it!” — Rich Evans

David Muccoli summed it up: “When you copy from someone else, it’s called plagiarism. When you copy from yourself, it’s called style.  (Quote plagiarized from someone whose name I do not remember)”

That sounds good to me! The truth is — and I don’t know if you all have experienced it — that sometimes I’ll start with a chord progression and rhythm and, once I put a melody and lyric over it, it morphs quite a bit. Perhaps that will happen here, as well. Or maybe I’ll just put that capo up a bit so it’s in another key. Or maybe I’ll do whatever I please since it’s my own darn song!

I’d love to continue the discussion here…what do y’all think of this issue?

  • rodii

    I think Lisa Chang Orrantia needs to get some perspective. It’s not lazy, it’s taking something you’re not happy with and trying to rework it into something better. That’s work. It’s no different that reworking something that’s been sitting around in your notebook. Lazy would be if you *didn’t* do anything with the song.

  • http://www.reverbnation.com/tomryan Tom Ryan

    Sharon, I’ve done it on a number of occasions, sometimes intentionally, more often not. No guilt for me–(I like David M’s “style” comment. If I have an older song that appears like it’s outlasted its shelf life, I consider it fair game in the “songwriting junkyard (this applies to phrases & lyrics of said song too).
    If I write two songs that are both relevant to remain in my repertoire and their styles seems too similar, I just make it a point not to sing them both at the same event.

  • http://markjondahl.com Mark Jondahl

    How many times did the Ramones use the same chord progression? John Foggarty was sued by his own record company for plagiarizing himself that way, and he won. I think that as long as you can make something fresh and new out of old source material, it’s all good. We live in a society of artists that have, over the last hundred years or so, legitimized sampling, collage, appropriation, satire, prefab, pop-art, which all use existing pattern and composition as raw materials for the creation of brightly vibrant original art. Don’t sweat it.

  • dversion

  • http://www.facebook.com/gene.ballou Gene Ballou

    We so easily forget that today’s music is founded on yesterday’s music. We’re ALL guilty of plagiarism to some extent. At one point I wondered if I COULD write an original song, since the songs I wrote during that time all tended to sound similar to popular songs. What I finally decided (after listening to some Top 40’s Pop) is that truly original music is a rare thing indeed, and if you write one or two that really doesn’t sound like anything else, you’re already doing better than the vast majority of song writers and musicians.

    And also, some music is SUPPOSED to follow a pattern – blues, for instance. Does that make it any less artistic than other styles? Not at all! The challenge in blues is to follow the pattern, and still come out sounding original! It can be done, but it ain’t easy.

    Bottom line for me is, music is supposed to be about doing what you love and being happy with what you do. If you are, then nobody has anything to say about it. Make music you love! Be happy with your own creation! And let the critics rant and rave. :-)

  • Jeremy Davis

    If your changing it your changing it. How many g c d songs are there that sound totally different

  • http://www.cerebellumblues.com Jeff Shattuck

    The simple truth is that most Western music is I V IV, and all the magic comes from variation (groove, melody, phrasing, sound, etc.). To say that once a chord progression has been captured by you or anyone else it can no longer be used by you or anyone else is to admit that you don’t know much about music!

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  • http://www.helenaustin.com Helen Austin

    it’s so subjective… I just know that if I reuse my own music again it doesn’t ever really feel like a new song and I end up rejecting it naturally.

  • Sam K

    This is a total non-issue, Gene Ballou pretty much said everything I wanted to say.

    Anyone who says or thinks that they are, or you should be, a totally original artist is just ignorant of how culture works.

  • http://tcelliott.blogspot.com/ T.C. Elliott

    Are you replacing the earlier song with a reworked version? You mentioned that you had stopped playing the early song. If you don’t intend to use the earlier song then the question is really moot.

    However, if you may use both songs then you may have a problem. It isn’t one of plagiarizing yourself. That’s fine. If you wrote both songs you can do with them as you please. But it is one thing to have a style and another to have two songs that sound so similar that it may throw listeners off or give them a mental picture of a lazy songwriter who can’t even be original enough to write two distinct songs.

    Muddy Waters did a song called “Hoochie Coochie Man.” He then did another song to the same rhythm and chords and it did very poorly. It was a rip off of a song he had already recorded because it was EXACTLY the same rhythm/chord progression.

    Or another example, if you played the Stone’s ‘Satisfaction’ instrumentally and then put a different melody over it, I doubt many people would consider that anything but a copy. Now if you used the same chords with a different rhythm, or possibly the same rhythm with different chords, either with a new melody you’d probably be safe. Although, in my opinion, it’s the rhythm that carries that song the most. (Obviously th e melody and lyric is huge.)

  • Mark Bryan

    Personally, I have done this a lot. Especially in the writing process. If a song is taking a long time to write and I have just overplayed the song searching for more ideas, I’ll come up with another melody or swith up the rhythm of the chord progression so I won’t get even more bored digging for possible lyrics. However, this is usually just a temporary thing. Once I get the lyrics squared away, I’ll go back to the old melody…..usually.
    Sometimes we get bored with our own songs and we have to find new aspects of the song explore.

  • http://kerriarista.com kerri

    whatever motivates you to write a song and create something that wasn’t there before, go for it! and i don’t think it’s plagiarizing when it’s your own thing is it? like someone already said, it’s just a process! :)

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  • http://www.world-of-songwriting.com/ Craig

    I do that all the time, there’s only so many chords and chord progressions out there. If you make a better song out of it then go for it…alll guns blazing